Who is Paul Tibbets?

Paul Tibbets was the pilot of the Enola Gay. If you know what what that is you need to read your history books.

Where he is now I can not tell you. He served his county, did his duty and in his own words "Killed 80,000 people". May the world never again see a Paul Tibbets who in doing his duty made History.

http://multimedia.thestar.com/images/assets/291986_3.JPG

Paul Tibbets was an american hero

We need more men like him

Pilots who follow orders?

A hero to some.
But more remarkable is how he could live with killing that many people.
Can you imagine you would be the one doing that?
Killing 80k people? Lots of women and children that had nothing to do with it?
Because you had to follow commands?

I don't think it's something that is easy to life with.
I'm quite sure I wouldn't be able to.

What was the name of the bomb? Small Boy?

I wonder if he knew what he was getting himself into. If he knew how big the impact would be.

He knew and he still followed his orders, Thats someone to respect.
If they hadnt dropped it millions would have died in hindsight. So not a fun call to make but the right one.

A hero to some.
But more remarkable is how he could live with killing that many people.
Can you imagine you would be the one doing that?
Killing 80k people? Lots of women and children that had nothing to do with it?
Because you had to follow commands?

I don't think it's something that is easy to life with.
I'm quite sure I wouldn't be able to.

What was the name of the bomb? Small Boy?

I wonder if he knew what he was getting himself into. If he knew how big the impact would be.

it was Little Boy...

Tibbets expressed no regret regarding the decision to drop the bomb. In a 1975 interview he said: "I'm proud that I was able to start with nothing, plan it and have it work as perfectly as it did... I sleep clearly every night.". In March 2005, he stated “If you give me the same circumstances, hell yeah, I'd do it again.”

Compare that to the millions who were expected to kill their enemies in close combat? Him flying over a city? Where his bomb captain dropped a bomb on someone else's orders? A bomb he didn't make? A bomb just like the 100s he had already dropped?

Im really glad he died. Many others should follow..

So there is no shame in what happened?

The only country to EVER use a nuclear bomb on another country with the intent to kill thousands of people? Thousands of people that were not enemy combatants? A terrorist act? Sure, he was following his orders (machine), but who above him is responsible? Who paid for this dispicable act?


What if the result was different? What if the same "shock and awe" tactics were used against a country that decides to go down fighting and retaliates in kind? That would really have changed the face of the world.


(Also surprised that a crewman of the plane that dropped the bomb didn't die of cancer with 15-20 years of the event. 92 years? Don't know about the others, but that a good innings!)

So there is no shame in what happened?

The only country to EVER use a nuclear bomb on another country with the intent to kill thousands of people? Thousands of people that were not enemy combatants? A terrorist act? Sure, he was following his orders (machine), but who above him is responsible? Who paid for this dispicable act?


What if the result was different? What if the same "shock and awe" tactics were used against a country that decides to go down fighting and retaliates in kind? That would really have changed the face of the world.


(Also surprised that a crewman of the plane that dropped the bomb didn't die of cancer with 15-20 years of the event. 92 years? Don't know about the others, but that a good innings!)

Finally!! Someone understands me..
Yeah americans, we all know you saved the world and you are the freakin heroes.. Sure right...
Grow up! Get a conscience and think for yourselfs. That ******* a hero?

You damn machines

I try to keep mine in the middle.
I posted about the women and children being killed and how hard it would be to live with that. That was a hint to that I don't agree on calling the nuke a great act.

I do understand however it was in a wartime, and strange things happen then. America was also desperate. They felt the loss of their boys in Pearl Harbor.

So they made a choice. Perhaps not the right choice to bomb a city with a nuke however.
But then again in war we usually do so. I know half of Holland was bombed by the Germans in the 2cond world war. They didn't choose military targets.
The bombing of civilians is for one purpose: get the government to surrender.

And it works to end a battle very quickly. But if you imagine the loss of life of those that didn't sign up for this war, it's really terrible.
Just imagine like I said the women and children.
But I think this had more effect than most knew. Therefor it has never been used again. We learn from our mistakes eh?

However: foskasse.
Here in Holland we have a problem that the country seems to be getting really anti-american.
Let's also think for ourselves and don't believe everything we hear.
All you hear is Americans this and Americans that.
You probably talk to americans too here right? Do you know that most I talk to here absolutely do not agree with the things Bush has done?
I adored Clinton though. I don't like Bush. And in no way do I think he represents all Americans.

So let's not have this thread turn out into a flamewar. We're all people on 1 earth. A country shouldn't be defined by 1 or 2 leaders. It's the people that count.

Hey I know a good ending to this rant:
"To remind us that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human."
- Leto Atreides

Yeah he's imaginary, but therefor real.

We learn from our mistakes eh?


Well so far.....

But of course to call it a "mistake" should also render the event immune from patriotism......

Also, you make a very valid point with resepct to my first post that half of Holland was bombed, by lets go to the main combatants;

Germany bombed England, England bombed Germany. Both killing probably more then both the nuclear bombs each. They both did it to each other. Both were insanely wrong to do it. Luckily for the world Japan didn't decide to retaliate and so far no-one has ever brought these weapons back to the battlefield. The precedent is there, though.

Incidently, why is killing civilians that much worse than killing soldiers?

Not like those had that much of a choice but there was a calculation made how much it would cost to invade the home islands.

Iwo Jima, the first Japanese island to be invaded (I believe) cost the US so much troops they saw no other alternative. Berlin was bombed to smithereens, and so was london. The Nazi's murdered millions of jews and other civilians without ever using the bomb. The Good ol' Nipponese killed millions of chinese and were merily continuing this tradition.

However: foskasse.
Here in Holland we have a problem that the country seems to be getting really anti-american.
Let's also think for ourselves and don't believe everything we hear.
All you hear is Americans this and Americans that.
You probably talk to americans too here right? Do you know that most I talk to here absolutely do not agree with the things Bush has done?
I adored Clinton though. I don't like Bush. And in no way do I think he represents all Americans.

So let's not have this thread turn out into a flamewar. We're all people on 1 earth. A country shouldn't be defined by 1 or 2 leaders. It's the people that count.

Hey I know a good ending to this rant:
"To remind us that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human."
- Leto Atreides

Yeah he's imaginary, but therefor real.

I have nothing agains the good americans, but the are just too few.. And really, I am against countries, borders, religions.. everything that turn us apart.. And that makes me against everyone that deffend religions, countries, borders etc..

Ouch, touchy subject...

I agree with the sentiments of the innocent being killed by that bomb but without the 2 nukes, the world war would have not finished when it did. Me being from a country that was occupied, I am happy it ended there.

Who knows, If I would be allowed to live, I might be running around with pigtails, skirt, flowers in one hand, playing a 'fromm Hausfrau" to some nazi whilst doing house-chores and smile as if we are all happy in the new Reich.

Without the US' involvement in the second world war, we could also be running around with red flags drinking vodka (not necessarily a bad thing if good vermouth is added ;)) with our soviet overlords (again, if we would be allowed to live).

So for the US and their soldiers' involvement (and subsequent following orders) I am happy what they did at the time as it did certainly stop the war.

I will leave it at that... any more and this thread could easily end up in the mother of all threads (or the new marathon thread).

Germany bombed England, England bombed Germany. Both killing probably more then both the nuclear bombs each. They both did it to each other. Both were insanely wrong to do it. Luckily for the world Japan didn't decide to retaliate and so far no-one has ever brought these weapons back to the battlefield. The precedent is there, though.I just love it when people post for a reaction and hey I fell for it!

I have nothing agains the good americans, but the are just too few.. And really, I am against countries, borders, religions.. everything that turn us apart.. And that makes me against everyone that deffend religions, countries, borders etc..

You're a commie :)

I like certain aspects of communism but one thing I hated about Mao's communists were the uni haircuts and clothes... my god - no fashion sense whatsoever

Don't know why I play a war game when I'm such a lefty......


I think my main issue was that Paul Tibbets could be considered a Hero. Imagine if someone called Mohamed Atta a hero for what he did, except he went one step further and died for his cause.


Hmmm, perhaps I'll just leave this thread alone now. It's all perception.

Don't know why I play a war game when I'm such a lefty......


I think my main issue was that Paul Tibbets could be considered a Hero. Imagine if someone called Mohamed Atta a hero for what he did, except he went one step further and died for his cause.


Hmmm, perhaps I'll just leave this thread alone now. It's all perception.

You think nobody calls Atta a hero?
A former collegeau of mine called him a hero even.
A collegeau of mine is left extreme, and is still friends with the guy that killed our politician Pim Fortuyn.
He also calls Atta a hero.

I'm right, though not extreme.
But sometimes I think left extreme is more dangerous than right extreme. The right side is all talk. They scream a lot, but the left side don't speak, but act(and kill).

Anyway, it depends where you come from. I have collegeaus from Morocco who think Bin Laden is a hero.
But that's going offtopic.

I can't consider Paul a real hero, as he was just following orders. If not for him, it would've been another random skilled pilot.
I also can't call the ones thinking of this bomb hero's, as too many innocent lives were lost.
And there is a difference between a civilian death, and a soldier. The soldier knows what could happen, and the civilian might even be against the actions of their government.
But as has also been said, more lifes could have been lost if the bomb wasn't dropped.

Yet you still always hope the bomb would've been dropped in an area that held all the soldiers, planes and ships. But that's just wishful thinking.

People if you study the time and reasoning, it was not so much a retaliation for Pearl harbour, the fire bombings did that. It was the fact the whole country was prepared to battle, there were no civilians. The US would have had to kill millions, 10's of. And lost over a million men I think it was projected.

You think nobody calls Atta a hero?


That's exactly my point.

Imagine a thread though on an English speaking forum that proclaims him as a hero (commemorating the anniversary of his death).

I'm sure Japan don't consider Tibbets a hero.

Even though it wasnt a great thing to do... The US had to choice between that or making one of the largest scale invasions in History... Which would of Killed well beyond 80k troops. Also diplomacy was out of the question... It took 2 bombs to make the Japanese give in... Also like others said many nations have committed acts like this in there past... Maybe not with an A Bomb but the numbers that died can be near oir well above what the A Bomb did.

Also many people in the US can be very pompous and overly patriotic and arrogant... But dont generalize the whole population

Finally!! Someone understands me..
Yeah americans, we all know you saved the world and you are the freakin heroes.. Sure right...
Grow up! Get a conscience and think for yourselfs. That ******* a hero?

You damn machines
ya but when you need help who you come crying to when you need help... Damn you..and all who think like this you make me sick....One thing AMERICA needs too do is stop sending money and help too ALL outside America..and see where you all will be.... KISS MY ASS.....

ya but when you need help who you come crying to when you need help... Damn you..and all who think like this you make me sick....One thing AMERICA needs too do is stop sending money and help too ALL outside America..and see where you all will be.... KISS MY ASS.....

Well, if that happens one day, we could all thank your american god. One of the main problems we have(the world) , is due to the american intervention. If you could be only in your country and dont interfere with the rest of the world, well, that would be really something..

Help? When did you helped anyone else?

I will speak in the Portuguese case. Right after the WW2, and since we had no direct intervention, we didnt received "help".
In the 60's and 70's, the american sponsored militias, who under the diskised of patriots, tried to take back the independency to our colonies. Thousands of Portuguese soldiers died in that war, who only objective was to stop the Russian presence in Africa, and to gain access to the diamond and gold mines in the ex portuguese colonies.. I have several members in my familie that still carry the marks of that war, sponsored by your administration..
So, thanks a lot for your help.

This should be in VIP if you are all going to debate about politics. I don't see the point of this thread, is it to start a debate or a discussion? Is it to pay respects to a man that helped make history? There's countless debates on this subject and whether or not the bombings should of happened. We will never have an answer to what would've happened had we not nuked them. R.I.P Paul Tibbets, along with the millions that died in WWII.

I adored Clinton though. I don't like Bush. And in no way do I think he represents all Americans.

A f-ing men. Bush does not represent every American's intellectual caliber.

While I don't agree with the nuclear weapons being dropped, there was a reason to it as there had been a large response on the European front, while the americans were island hopping. It was really a last resort to stop the war, as there were 6 Nuclear bombs to be dropped, however two were used (from my understanding, may be wrong it's been awhile since I've read on this).

If it was me, I wouldn't lose any sleep over killing over 100,000 people either. If I was in the same position, I would've dropped it as well. I know it's demented and wrong, but sometimes to fight for your country it is something you must do. Similar to the Japanese Kamikazes.

so a bomb to kill so many people is okay by american standards.
but a plane to kill those in a building is not?

In 1938 Einstein wrote a letter to Roosevelt warning him the nazis were building the bomb. Soon after, the Manhattan project was born, a race to build the bomb before the Nazis. Roosevelt was president during the development and construction of the bomb. He died suddenly and Harry Truman was briefed on the Manhattan project. To him it was just another weapon. He was not interested in the history of the project, or that the Nazis failed to produce a nuclear weapon. He was interested in ending the war.

I used to argue with my grandmother about the moral implications of dropping the bomb. She was painfully uneducated, prejudiced, and stubborn too. I always tried to explain to her all of the liberal ideas and thinking I was exposed at college, she refused consider. She did however enlighten me on the Japan subject, she reasoned that if we did not drop the bomb, her brother, a marine in the pacific theater, would not have come home. Her husband, my grandfather, was a soldier in Europe. She was tired of world war. Who could argue moral implications against that?

The guy who flew the plane an American hero? not so sure about that. Who was the bombardier? Are the guys who fueled the plane heroes too? Following orders and doing your job is not necessarily heroic.

American Hero? How about Lenny Skutnik, who 1982 dove into the Icy Potomac river to save a drowning passenger from the Air Florida plane crash. He wasn't following orders, just his heart.

so a bomb to kill so many people is okay by american standards.
but a plane to kill those in a building is not?
Haven't you figured out that's just one big Conspiracy by the American government to fuel the Middle East Wars?

:assassin

do note, I'm joking though it is possible

I have nothing agains the good americans, but the are just too few.. And really, I am against countries, borders, religions.. everything that turn us apart.. And that makes me against everyone that deffend religions, countries, borders etc..
so i assume that you have experience with a vast majority of americans, and thus are qualified to state how there are too few good ones?

oh, and BTW---you go on to say you are against everything that tears people apart, and yet didn't you do just that when you made your comment about how too few americans are "good". seems like your dislike of a couple of politicians has allowed you to become tainted towards the country, and thus it is YOUR OWN BELIEFS that are turning you against a group of people

Actually, if half the people who voted voted for a maniac. And the people who didn't vote apperently didn't think it important to stop the maniac.

Yea i'd be pretty confident in saying a good deal of americans are idiots.

Haven't you figured out that's just one big Conspiracy by the American government to fuel the Middle East Wars?

:assassin

do note, I'm joking though it is possible

god thank you helo. 911 is a huge conspiracy. NOTHING addes up in the 911 commission report. its all a god damn lie. Air planes do not vaporize! Watch this video it will change your every thought on 911 and what really happened. http://loosechange911.com/index_main.html

god thank you helo. 911 is a huge conspiracy. NOTHING addes up in the 911 commission report. its all a god damn lie. Air planes do not vaporize! Watch this video it will change your every thought on 911 and what really happened. http://loosechange911.com/index_main.html

This comment belongs in the Propaganda thread. ;bounce

Loose Change is the single worst piece of conspiracy theory propaganda out there.

The better question to ask yourself while you watch it is, why don't any of their 'plausible' explanations add up?

But this is ;offtopic

god thank you helo. 911 is a huge conspiracy. NOTHING addes up in the 911 commission report. its all a god damn lie. Air planes do not vaporize! Watch this video it will change your every thought on 911 and what really happened. http://loosechange911.com/index_main.html

War Happens.
Terrorism Happens.
It's human nature...we want to be right.

No one could pull of a conspiracy like 911, it was real. I wish people would think for themselves. :rtfm

so i assume that you have experience with a vast majority of americans, and thus are qualified to state how there are too few good ones?

oh, and BTW---you go on to say you are against everything that tears people apart, and yet didn't you do just that when you made your comment about how too few americans are "good". seems like your dislike of a couple of politicians has allowed you to become tainted towards the country, and thus it is YOUR OWN BELIEFS that are turning you against a group of people



Actually, if half the people who voted voted for a maniac. And the people who didn't vote apperently didn't think it important to stop the maniac.

Yea i'd be pretty confident in saying a good deal of americans are idiots.

Ok, oddly enough, timmetie said something logic..
A people that allows their administration to do the things they do. and keep doing, and im not only talking about the wars, but civil rights, laws, internacional politics, environmental desesrect, everything...
A people that elects, and lets that a few of them to do that sorts of things, or is retarded, or is as bad as their leaders.

Like I said piggdawg, anyone that supports division of the people as one, is my enemie..

9/11 again?
First I want to say that people who come up with Loose Change should stop believing all they see.
The news of the creator of Loose Change went all around the world. What a liar he was. He just made up all kinds of things.

Secondly....try watching this also: http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

I also think this topic will move to the VIP pretty soon as it's obvious people can't be civil here about this discussion.

I want to note that if you just come out here to spew hate by saying almost an entire nationality exists out of idiots, you are not doing your nationality a favour as that can be seen as lower behaviour even.

Alot of topics to respond to in this thread,

Part 1:
Considering that it took TWO atomic bombs on populated targets before the Japanese capitulated I believe the US decided to do this because they needed something drastic to dampen the resolve/morale of the Japanese population where they would consider something like surrender. Keep in mind that the Japanese would rather kill themselves than surrender as shown by use of kamikaze pilots and brutal fighting as the US hopped from island to island in the Pacific.

Invasion of Japan would've been a very bloody and even more destructive event than the two bombs alone. The question becomes, is it better to use a weapon like the atomic bomb rather then kill the same number of people (or possibly many more) through a long, drawn-out invasion? For the US, this was a definite yes, esp. considering what they had been through on much smaller islands in the Pacific.

Based upon the historical context I also think the US was thinking about the rise of the Soviet Union. Considering the size and power of the Soviet military at the time the US was rightly concerned about what they would do next. Destroying two cities with relative ease may have made the Soviets pause to think.



Part 2:
I didn't vote for Bush either time he lost. Bush "won" the first election because it went to the Supreme Court where a bunch of his dads' cronies gave him the presidency. Gore didn't have the balls at the time to rightfully and fully challenge the election as he should have. I believe Gore has commented since then that he wishes he had done things differently.

The second time I think political shenanigans should be called. I think between questionable results in Ohio and I believe Florida as well there are too many questions and not enough answers.

The ultimate problem is that there isn't a good, standardized, fully accountable voting system in the US. There is always the possibility that someone is going to rig the vote and I don't see that changing soon ;(



Part 3:
The events of 9/11 were NOT a conspiracy. A bunch of crazy f'ers tooks over several planes and crashed them into buildings killing thousands of people.

What COULD be the conspiracy is why the government didn't pick up on such a large, planned operation and why the Bush administration has used the 9/11 attacks as an excuse to invade Iraq. Saddam was a real SOB, but he wasn't friends with Al Qaeda. Instead of finishing the war in Afghanistan and helping the country to stabilize the Bush administration decided to get some revenge and invade Iraq, all along the way filling up the pockets of their friends' companies.



Part 4:
I need a beer, all this sh** depresses me...

Like I said piggdawg, anyone that supports division of the people as one, is my enemie..
then politically the only way to support non-division of a group of people, politically at least, would be to maintain a dictatorship. otherwise, any government that allows for open elections between more than one group, or individuals, cause division.

and then if you in turn feel that americans are idiots because our voting process allows for CHOICE, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your views

and i think i will shut my mouth now before i start a flame war

People can argue about who is a hero, or who is justified in war and all of that - But wars would be different if the people making the decisions were actually involved. Things get really ugly when a suit is telling a soldier to drop a bomb. Of course he is going to follow orders. He (or she) is trained to believe that the people making the decisions are looking out for the best for everyone. I can't blame someone for that - But I can blame someone for deliberately sending thousands of soldiers onto a sandy beach knowing that almost all of them will die, when that same person wasn't willing to go himself because they think that their life is more important. I have a real problem with that.

War is easy. Anyone can start a fight. Peace is much harder - It is really difficult to exercise true diplomacy and mean it. Peace is a perpetual process, and those all too important suits don't have it in them to work on that, because there is no glory in it for themselves. So they take the lazy way out and fight.

I'm all for patriotism, and I think that any soldier who is protecting their country, whatever it is, has largely the same motives as any other soldier. They are patriots. But in many circumstances those same patriots end up doing horrible things because they are following the orders of someone who will always make damn sure that their own loved ones are not involved in acting out the decisions they make. Not to mention themselves.

And that changes the way wars are fought, started and finished.

A wise Greek man once said:
I'm not an inhabitant of this city, nor am I an inhabitant of Greece. I'm an inhabitant of this world.

You can already guess I have no feeling of nationalism ;)

Actually, if half the people who voted voted for a maniac. And the people who didn't vote apperently didn't think it important to stop the maniac.

Yea i'd be pretty confident in saying a good deal of americans are idiots.
you can kiss my ass too!

you can kiss my ass too!

Just picture google 'jan peter balkenende' and show it to Timmetie.
We did as bad.

Yeah let's be proud Holland....because that's our leader :)

as someone on another forum reasoned ( i shall paraphrase);

people are persuaded by authority that there are no other options

there are other options, "the options we are sold benefit certain groups of people"

quotes from people involved at the time:

Truman's chief of staff, admiral William D. Leahy, wrote that using the "barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons". He lamented that the US government "had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages". (Quoted, Anthony Gregory, 'Targeting Civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki,' August 6, 2004, http://www.fff.org/comment/com0408b.asp

The US Strategic Bombing Survey, which interviewed 700 Japanese military and political officials after the war, came to this conclusion:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated." (Quoted, Howard Zinn, The Zinn Reader, Seven Stories, 1997, p.350)

In 1963, former US president Dwight Eisenhower told Newsweek that "the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing". (Gregory, op. cit)

Brigadier general Carter Clarke, the military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables for president Truman and his advisors, commented:

"...when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs." (Gregory, ibid)

Just picture google 'jan peter balkenende' and show it to Timmetie.
We did as bad.

Yeah let's be proud Holland....because that's our leader :)
You know i was in holland once..and think i seen tim once...thats why i never have returned....

I also did some thinking on this subject.
I came to 1 question however.
Who is the one putting the lifes of the Japanese at risk?
The country that acted, or the country that reacted?
I said earlier the bomb was a terrible weapon to use and it was....but I also can't seem to come to the conclusion that they did go to war right?

I mean...if Holland goes to war with Germany, we can expect to have a lot of civilians killed by bombs also can't we?

The world blames a lot of the bad things on americans(while again we shouldn't say Bush represents the americans) but they didn't choose that war didn't they? Isn't it fact they got attacked first? By a force that for the first time on a big scale did suicide bombings to get their way?

i think this picture is a little bit better than the one in the first post:
http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00azext3.jpg

I also did some thinking on this subject.
I came to 1 question however.
Who is the one putting the lifes of the Japanese at risk?
The country that acted, or the country that reacted?
I said earlier the bomb was a terrible weapon to use and it was....but I also can't seem to come to the conclusion that they did go to war right?

I mean...if Holland goes to war with Germany, we can expect to have a lot of civilians killed by bombs also can't we?

The world blames a lot of the bad things on americans(while again we shouldn't say Bush represents the americans) but they didn't choose that war didn't they? Isn't it fact they got attacked first? By a force that for the first time on a big scale did suicide bombings to get their way?

The world needs someone to blame, it is similar to processes in this game. Every loser of each "in-game" war has someone to blame for their loss. Sometimes it is the opposer, others it is their own alliance and allies for not stepping up to bat.

I think of it as just you, yourself is all you can blame. While I do agree the atomic bombs were something that should've never been used, something was needed for that dramatic effect. Deep down, anyone who reads this knows what I mean. For the Japanese, their dramatic effect were the kamikazes. Their pilots run out of ammo and to fight for the honor of their country / family they crash their plane into another or a battleship. For the Germans, it was their massive cannon that could shoot mortars in 3-5 mile radius. For the Europeans, it was their brute force, and will power to overcome the german blitzkriegs.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

You know i was in holland once..and think i seen tim once...thats why i never have returned....


No need to get overtly personal. In a way, you only prove his point for him. Rise above.

And Timme, pull your head in aswell, your humour doesn't work when written down.



For the Europeans, it was their brute force, and will power to overcome the german blitzkriegs.


So Ukraine needs willpower to overcome NAOW's Blitzkrieg? ;bounce

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Now he'll get to see all the faces of his victims.
since when is a man doing his duty and protecting a country from the group that invaded us first, a piece of rubbish?

i guess you are saying that every soldier, policeman, etc. that has killed doing his duty is going to jail, huh?

maybe people who spew such ill wishes on others are the ones who will be going to jail? well, if thats the case at least you could get a tan ;)

Wow, Little did I suspect when I posted the news that this would come of it. We have the Left screaming burn burn in hell with the faces of those you killed you Murdering *******. We have the Right and Americans going he was a hero. He'll be missed. *sniffle*

Here's my opinion on this.
Japan had proven in several island battles that they where going to be a hard nut to crack. Atomics made it easier. There is evidence (circumstantial at best) that Japan lit off an atomic device in the second week of August 1945. See wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atomic_program) for details.
Germany was aiming to have Atomics when the program was started. Thinking of Nazi Germany with atomics scares me... alot. I will not deny the need for the allies to have the device should the Axis develop it.

I think Truman was wrong in having the bomb hit a city the first go around. I think the penizila outside Tokyo or the island just off Tokyo (though it would have destroyed part of that city to be sure) for the first bomb.

As for blaming an officer for doing his duty on this. Nuremburg killed the "I was just following orders" excuse and the "I feared for my own life" excuse. I am just glad I'm not sitting in Karmic Judgement of the man.

RomJ
Overlord of Ferrets

I find it odd that so many people hate me because Im from America, I can live with that but dont hate me till you have come to my house and had coffee, then tell me to my face why and then I will understand. I wonder If you would care enough to walk down your street with my wife and kids where you live and tell everyone where we are from and see what happens, If you walked down my street and I told my neighbors where you came from, nothing would happen here.This is why its hard when my 9 year old daughter ask why do people hate us.tweedy

Who are you kidding?

nuking 200,000+ innocent, defenceless civilians isn't protecting your country.

It's a bloody slaughter.

Paul Tibbets is a gutless snipe, and America should be ashamed and disgusted in itself for stopping down to the level of the Japanese.

The world is better off without him.

So instead of a bomb..lets just fight for maybe 5 or 6 more years and what the hell kill oh...2 or 3 million people....America was also attacked in peral habor...you think the people in the states were no afraid of them coming here and say kill all the women and kids that were here almost alone while..i will say this MY FATHER was will the rest of the men gone fighting wars to Help other countries....the man did what the army told him to do.......200,000 deaths saved probally millions of innocent, defenceless civilians....

Who are you kidding?

nuking 200,000+ innocent, defenceless civilians isn't protecting your country.

It's a bloody slaughter.

Paul Tibbets is a gutless snipe, and America should be ashamed and disgusted in itself for stopping down to the level of the Japanese.

The world is better off without him.
i'm not kidding anyone.
they attacked our country first, and instead of letting the war continue endlessly we chose a course of action to end it. whether that course was a good one or not is up to a different debate.

this debate is about the pilot of a plane. the fact is that he DID do his duty, much like any other public servant, as it was presented to him. since you SEEM (notice my disclaimer) to be pretty anti-USA regarding this, and other incidents, remember not to confuse what we are debating here.

Am I right in saying that the point you're trying to make is that he was so patriotic and followed his orders regardless of what they were? Because if so, I believe that if you are given an order that you believe to be wrong, you can safely assume that others feel the same way, and that you can rebel/mutiny, and take over the USA, then nuke the South Pole instead, abolish taxes, legalise marijuana, take all of the money out of the military and put it into cheer-leading, then go parachuting with paintball guns.

Am I right in saying that the point you're trying to make is that he was so patriotic and followed his orders regardless of what they were? Because if so, I believe that if you are given an order that you believe to be wrong, you can safely assume that others feel the same way, and that you can rebel/mutiny, and take over the USA, then nuke the South Pole instead, abolish taxes, legalise marijuana, take all of the money out of the military and put it into cheer-leading, then go parachuting with paintball guns.
ahhhhhhh...........you've been smoking from the same stash as nimrod i see

America has never been ATTACKED in recent history in the slightest.....pearl harbour,false flag event(wiki or google it) and 9/11 government involvment or not was ALLOWED to happen.Even after these theorys people who ave died DOING THERE JOB should not be slammed just cause the people who run there country are satanists.lol. anyhow Leave the dead,dead.if anyones going to burn in hell or see his victims in the after life its bush and cheney not the lads who joined the army for discipline and to fight.Its not there war its the global elitists war.

America has never been ATTACKED in recent history in the slightest.....pearl harbour,false flag event(wiki or google it)

my grandfather's death at the pearl harbor attack would indicate that you are an idiot

I find it odd that so many people hate me because Im from America, I can live with that but dont hate me till you have come to my house and had coffee, then tell me to my face why and then I will understand. I wonder If you would care enough to walk down your street with my wife and kids where you live and tell everyone where we are from and see what happens, If you walked down my street and I told my neighbors where you came from, nothing would happen here.This is why its hard when my 9 year old daughter ask why do people hate us.tweedy

Do you have real coffee or that brown drab a lot of Americans like to call coffee ? :p

I dont know of anyone that hates Americans, rather hate the current "regime" in place... big difference. OK, granted, there are some seriously stupid americans but then, there are seriously stupid people everywhere in the world. Just so happens that your country has a higher population than most other countries so 2 % stupid in the US is 5 - 20 times more stupid people than many other countries :)

I would not take it personal if I were you. If you ask people outside of the US, you might first hear that they hate Americans and then if you probe you realize quickly that it is not the general population they hate, rather the political environment and what has been done to the world over the past 5 years. Big difference.

And there are enough smart people who will never say the words "i/we hate americans", they will say right away what they do not like (government)

Apollyonna

P.S. And if I do hit your cities again, it is all in good fun - I do not hate you :)

and maybe some people 'hate' you for getting back the same damn cities in GEWar ;soap :blush2

So there is no shame in what happened?

The only country to EVER use a nuclear bomb on another country with the intent to kill thousands of people? Thousands of people that were not enemy combatants? A terrorist act? Sure, he was following his orders (machine), but who above him is responsible? Who paid for this dispicable act?


What if the result was different? What if the same "shock and awe" tactics were used against a country that decides to go down fighting and retaliates in kind? That would really have changed the face of the world.


(Also surprised that a crewman of the plane that dropped the bomb didn't die of cancer with 15-20 years of the event. 92 years? Don't know about the others, but that a good innings!)
Do you know anything about history at all?

If so, you would probably know that the US had been fire-bombing various Japanese cities for weeks prior to that eventful day. They did not have much of an air force left.

You'd also likely know that the Japanese mentality back then was to fight to the death. They were arming their wives and their children. Mass casualties were expected from both sides. Not thousands, or 100 of thousands, but MILLIONS. THe loss of life would be severe, the Emperor was not giving up easily. Not to mention that Japan did not have a bomb anywhere near as powerful as us, and would likely have not had one for years, so there was no threat to the US for a big attack back.

What the US hoped, was that a bomb of that magnitude would terrify (yes I chose my wording carefully there) the Japanese people into submission, that we had that capability would cause them to surrender.

It did.

I try to keep mine in the middle.
I posted about the women and children being killed and how hard it would be to live with that. That was a hint to that I don't agree on calling the nuke a great act.

I do understand however it was in a wartime, and strange things happen then. America was also desperate. They felt the loss of their boys in Pearl Harbor.

So they made a choice. Perhaps not the right choice to bomb a city with a nuke however.
But then again in war we usually do so. I know half of Holland was bombed by the Germans in the 2cond world war. They didn't choose military targets.
The bombing of civilians is for one purpose: get the government to surrender.

And it works to end a battle very quickly. But if you imagine the loss of life of those that didn't sign up for this war, it's really terrible.
Just imagine like I said the women and children.
But I think this had more effect than most knew. Therefor it has never been used again. We learn from our mistakes eh?

However: foskasse.
Here in Holland we have a problem that the country seems to be getting really anti-american.
Let's also think for ourselves and don't believe everything we hear.
All you hear is Americans this and Americans that.
You probably talk to americans too here right? Do you know that most I talk to here absolutely do not agree with the things Bush has done?
I adored Clinton though. I don't like Bush. And in no way do I think he represents all Americans.

So let's not have this thread turn out into a flamewar. We're all people on 1 earth. A country shouldn't be defined by 1 or 2 leaders. It's the people that count.

Hey I know a good ending to this rant:
"To remind us that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human."
- Leto Atreides

Yeah he's imaginary, but therefor real.
Bush is a terrorist.

~Signed, an American.

Yeha this was all said and ignored.. you can't argue if you know the facts

In 1938 Einstein wrote a letter to Roosevelt warning him the nazis were building the bomb. Soon after, the Manhattan project was born, a race to build the bomb before the Nazis. Roosevelt was president during the development and construction of the bomb. He died suddenly and Harry Truman was briefed on the Manhattan project. To him it was just another weapon. He was not interested in the history of the project, or that the Nazis failed to produce a nuclear weapon. He was interested in ending the war.

I used to argue with my grandmother about the moral implications of dropping the bomb. She was painfully uneducated, prejudiced, and stubborn too. I always tried to explain to her all of the liberal ideas and thinking I was exposed at college, she refused consider. She did however enlighten me on the Japan subject, she reasoned that if we did not drop the bomb, her brother, a marine in the pacific theater, would not have come home. Her husband, my grandfather, was a soldier in Europe. She was tired of world war. Who could argue moral implications against that?

The guy who flew the plane an American hero? not so sure about that. Who was the bombardier? Are the guys who fueled the plane heroes too? Following orders and doing your job is not necessarily heroic.

American Hero? How about Lenny Skutnik, who 1982 dove into the Icy Potomac river to save a drowning passenger from the Air Florida plane crash. He wasn't following orders, just his heart.
Good post.

Actually, if half the people who voted voted for a maniac. And the people who didn't vote apperently didn't think it important to stop the maniac.

Yea i'd be pretty confident in saying a good deal of americans are idiots.
Do you know how the election process works?

If not, don't speak.

Yeha this was all said and ignored.. you can't argue if you know the facts
I noticed that.

Triple post! Your the man Republican dude!
Now, go vote for the guy..
Go on... :D

Triple post! Your the man Republican dude!
Now, go vote for the guy..
Go on... :D
I really hope you don't represent the Portuguese, because I know quite a few, and none come of so ignorant and obnoxious.

I'm as far from a Republican as there is, I'd call myself a Independent I guess, but I'm politically neutral.

I'm also fairly liberal bent, but I think for myself. Try it.

I really hope you don't represent the Portuguese, because I know quite a few, and none come of so ignorant and obnoxious.

I'm as far from a Republican as there is, I'd call myself a Independent I guess, but I'm politically neutral.

I'm also fairly liberal bent, but I think for myself. Try it.

Cant you stand a joke?

"oh no, cause I have a inferiorety complex"

ok man, suit yourself..

playing for a week and already a tripple post. HAHAHA you show promise

playing for a week and already a tripple post. HAHAHA you show promise

thats exactly what I tought! This one must be mine :p

Cant you stand a joke?

"oh no, cause I have a inferiorety complex"

ok man, suit yourself..
So now you'll argue for me?

Could you be more pompous?

So now you'll argue for me?

Could you be more pompous?

I guess not.. Im so full of myself. But Im a sweet person actually..

I guess not.. Im so full of myself. But Im a sweet person actually..
You know, I believe you are a sweetheart.

You know, I believe you are a sweetheart.

Can we be friends? :drinks

WOOT 300 posts

Can we be friends? :drinks

WOOT 300 posts
Well, I think to be friends one needs to know more about another.

Well, I think to be friends one needs to know more about another.

Ok, I just made 301 posts.. Now its your turn..

Ok, I just made 301 posts.. Now its your turn..
I've made far less than that. :boredom

isn't that, if you don't know who he is....

A hero to some.
But more remarkable is how he could live with killing that many people.
Can you imagine you would be the one doing that?
Killing 80k people? Lots of women and children that had nothing to do with it?
Because you had to follow commands?

I don't think it's something that is easy to life with.
I'm quite sure I wouldn't be able to.

What was the name of the bomb? Small Boy?

I wonder if he knew what he was getting himself into. If he knew how big the impact would be.
i killed two robbers a few years ago,i was working for a big security company at the time,before that day i thought that killing someone would be easy,believe me it's not,not even robbers.
so i can't imagine killing 80k,including women and children.
do pens make spelling errors.
do guns kill people.

do Kb's make typo's?

Do you have real coffee or that brown drab a lot of Americans like to call coffee ? :p

I dont know of anyone that hates Americans, rather hate the current "regime" in place... big difference. OK, granted, there are some seriously stupid americans but then, there are seriously stupid people everywhere in the world. Just so happens that your country has a higher population than most other countries so 2 % stupid in the US is 5 - 20 times more stupid people than many other countries :)

I would not take it personal if I were you. If you ask people outside of the US, you might first hear that they hate Americans and then if you probe you realize quickly that it is not the general population they hate, rather the political environment and what has been done to the world over the past 5 years. Big difference.

And there are enough smart people who will never say the words "i/we hate americans", they will say right away what they do not like (government)

Apollyonna

P.S. And if I do hit your cities again, it is all in good fun - I do not hate you :)

and maybe some people 'hate' you for getting back the same damn cities in GEWar ;soap :blush2
thanks I dont hate you either, ;drunk I have to say I like the way you play this game, you are fast becoming a force to be feared. ;uzi

i killed two robbers a few years ago,i was working for a big security company at the time,before that day i thought that killing someone would be easy,believe me it's not,not even robbers.
so i can't imagine killing 80k,including women and children.
do pens make spelling errors.
do guns kill people.

In a study i saw in my sociology class we noticed how proximity can affect the emotions of the person doing a physically painful act to another. in this case, im sure its harder to be close to the person then to be in Tibbets' situation.

think about it, would his answers be the same if instead of flying over with an eagle eye view and pushing a button, he would actually go down there and have to kill them one by one at point blank range?

Do you have real coffee or that brown drab a lot of Americans like to call coffee ? :p

I dont know of anyone that hates Americans, rather hate the current "regime" in place... big difference. OK, granted, there are some seriously stupid americans but then, there are seriously stupid people everywhere in the world. Just so happens that your country has a higher population than most other countries so 2 % stupid in the US is 5 - 20 times more stupid people than many other countries :)

I would not take it personal if I were you. If you ask people outside of the US, you might first hear that they hate Americans and then if you probe you realize quickly that it is not the general population they hate, rather the political environment and what has been done to the world over the past 5 years. Big difference.

And there are enough smart people who will never say the words "i/we hate americans", they will say right away what they do not like (government)

Apollyonna

P.S. And if I do hit your cities again, it is all in good fun - I do not hate you :)

and maybe some people 'hate' you for getting back the same damn cities in GEWar ;soap :blush2

Me personally, I hate the people more then the "regime", why? well, not all the people, but what seems to be alot of them, sure we have stupid people too, but the stupidity in the US is displayed in a different way, and I hate it.

P.S. if you read an article about a celebrity's baby and u dont know who that celebrity is but u still care about the article, you're probably a stupid american.

if you play gewar, you're probably a smart american;)

Me personally, I hate the people more then the "regime", why? well, not all the people, but what seems to be alot of them, sure we have stupid people too, but the stupidity in the US is displayed in a different way, and I hate it.

P.S. if you read an article about a celebrity's baby and u dont know who that celebrity is but u still care about the article, you're probably a stupid american.

if you play gewar, you're probably a smart american;)

You are my Idol, you took the words from my mouth..´
Only stupid people can suport a stupid regime..

Only stupid people can suport a stupid regime..
incorrect............only stupid people would cause wide scale social and political and economic unrest for a "regime" that is scheduled to cycle through every few years. and stupid people would not have a system of checks and balances in place to help ensure that said "regime" doesn't turn into a totalitarian government.

people who would revolt, in inappropriate ways, against such a "regime" that they disagree with would be short-sighted and be more harmful to the country. sure our country has it's faults---eveyone's does.

but thanks for your ignorant-ass comment

man you guys are brutal, but we can all relax because our retarded leader will be finished soon and we will be getting a new 1. so stop the hate, some ppl are "special" its not his fault he was dropped as a baby. as for the guy flying the plane a hero, nope. hes not a hero or a villan. hes just a pilot, nothing more nothing less. heroes don't take life they protect it at all costs. as for making the decision to drop the bomb, it was the right decision. think of it this way, about 200k ppl died? if we hadn't drooped the bomb we would have fought for a few more years and millions more would have died, so lets say if we hadn't dropped the bomb 4 million more ppl die. thats a 1 to 20 ratio, if you could go back and change what happened would you be willing to save 1 person knowing that 20 more ppl would die in there place. normal people with families

America has never been ATTACKED in recent history in the slightest.....pearl harbour,false flag event(wiki or google it) and 9/11 government involvment or not was ALLOWED to happen.Even after these theorys people who ave died DOING THERE JOB should not be slammed just cause the people who run there country are satanists.lol. anyhow Leave the dead,dead.if anyones going to burn in hell or see his victims in the after life its bush and cheney not the lads who joined the army for discipline and to fight.Its not there war its the global elitists war.


my grandfather's death at the pearl harbor attack would indicate that you are an idiot

That or his mommy and daddy are one in the same? I think your new name is Cartman duke. I mean, ya it was a concpiracy....they even got the Japanese to lie and say they attacked first. And elvis is still alive living with the toothfairy, Santa, and Budha. My god I can't beleive there are people this dumb in the world?

As for PD, your Gfather, I appologize for the inane comments from the plebe above. Sometimes the slack-jawed yokles speak/grunt. Yes even they have rights

That or his mommy and daddy are one in the same? I think your new name is Cartman duke. I mean, ya it was a concpiracy....they even got the Japanese to lie and say they attacked first. And elvis is still alive living with the toothfairy, Santa, and Budha. My god I can't beleive there are people this dumb in the world?

As for PD, your Gfather, I appologize for the inane comments from the plebe above. Sometimes the slack-jawed yokles speak/grunt. Yes even they have rights
some people don't believe the hollocost even happened

man you guys are brutal, but we can all relax because our retarded leader will be finished soon and we will be getting a new 1. so stop the hate, some ppl are "special" its not his fault he was dropped as a baby. as for the guy flying the plane a hero, nope. hes not a hero or a villan. hes just a pilot, nothing more nothing less. heroes don't take life they protect it at all costs. as for making the decision to drop the bomb, it was the right decision. think of it this way, about 200k ppl died? if we hadn't drooped the bomb we would have fought for a few more years and millions more would have died, so lets say if we hadn't dropped the bomb 4 million more ppl die. thats a 1 to 20 ratio, if you could go back and change what happened would you be willing to save 1 person knowing that 20 more ppl would die in there place. normal people with families
personally i couldn't, it would be a very hard decision but i couldn't save 1 knowing 20 more would die instead

as for the guy flying the plane a hero, nope. hes not a hero or a villan. hes just a pilot, nothing more nothing less.

This is by far the best analogy I have read so far...

The problem with the term "hero" is that at least in the west, has been associated with anyone who does really anything. You survive a crash, you're a hero. You make a touchdown, you're a hero....blah blah.

A hero is someone who goes to lengths beyond most humans, in which you can either save life(lives), change a way of life for the greater good of humanity, or risks their life for that of another because in their view it is the right thing to do without thinking of your own rewards or selfishness for doing so. There are other ways, but to me the above are mainstay.

And df4 is right, he was just a pilot doing what he was told.

And df4 is right, he was just a pilot doing what he was told.

I agree, but sadly one with no marker or a grave.
He left instructions that he did not want one so that it would not become a target of any political point of view in the future.

The problem with the term "hero" is that at least in the west, has been associated with anyone who does really anything. You survive a crash, you're a hero. You make a touchdown, you're a hero....blah blah.

A hero is someone who goes to lengths beyond most humans, in which you can either save life(lives), change a way of life for the greater good of humanity, or risks their life for that of another because in their view it is the right thing to do without thinking of your own rewards or selfishness for doing so. There are other ways, but to me the above are mainstay.

And df4 is right, he was just a pilot doing what he was told.

I agree 110% with you... Your not a hero unless you go above and beyond the call of duty.. He was just following orders

radeon