Don't be scared. I didn't do it yet.

After years of thinking, we've concluded that cheating at gewar can't be stopped, and never will. Why? Because it's a webgame using a bank. I believe every other online game using a bank has the same problem. Down to Neopets.

Fake accounts are becoming smarter and smarter. Ofcourse it doesn't just get you off the hook by saying the other account is your friend/family/roommate, because we have pretty smart scripts to check you out, and we don't have to have the evidence for a 100%. 99% is good enough for us. But even then some know to wipe out every trace. Making the GEPolice job impossible for those particular fake accounts. And it isn't honest for the rest of our players to always being attacked by those accounts.

Some crewmembers(well 2 simultaniously, without speaking to eachother) came up with the Vessel idea. Now don't go crazy yet, read till the bottom of this post....

The vessel idea means that you don't use the bank anymore to deposit geos into someone elses account, but you hand the geos to an army, which then has to travel to an army of the one you want to give it to(wether it is outside somewhere, or in a city or homebase). This would probably bring fake accounts down a little. They'd actually had to participate into the game, leaving behind more traces. And after having used the army for delivering geos, they'd have to fight with it or it's just burning up geos. As every army could only be used once for delivering geos. Brilliant idea.

However, now with army intercepting it has to be rethought and rediscussed. I can already sense the frustration of people losing their geos to other players because their armies were intercepted. And that could be a lot of geos then.

There is another quick patch however, which would also work. And that's actually the one I've created this thread for now. If that would come into place, it would mean we'd have much more time on rethinking the vessel idea. And we could see if the vessel idea would not work together with army intercepting.

That quick patch is: Only being able to give geos to an alliance mate. Most fake accounts are not in an alliance even. And you can only give geos to an alliance mate if you are atleast 48 hours in that alliance. To stop people hopping around quickly to send geos.

This would not count for donators however. Because who would be crazy enough to create dozens of fake accounts and make those donator? Also it would be the special bonus donators want. Because lets face it, non donators, we need you because we need more players...but it's the donators who are paying for this game and server so they deserve it. It's not to hurt non-donators, but to thank donators. But foremost we think this would really bring down fake accounts. And if donators wouldn't mind being able to transfer within their alliance only, then I'd also like to hear it.

There were also requests to take away the bank in total, because only that could really stop it, but I think that would be taking it too far, as the bank can be fun too. Although I'd also like to hear what you people think about that, just out of interest.

I know it's not the kind of feature anyone would like, but I would still like to discuss it. In a civil matter. No angry rants please, as there is nothing done about this yet. It's just a discussion. I know nobody would really like it, but it's time to do something about fake accounts. You have to agree on that eh? No there is nothing that can be done with IP's or anything else, and great programmers have also already looked into the problem. All end up with the bank unfortunately.

I think it is a great idea, but most alliance prefer to keep their alliance banks outside the alliance for security reasons. Would you be able to give a single account the O.K. to make deposits and transfers while being outside the alliance or would that become too complicated?

I fully understand your motivations, Luke.

First question I have is the following: Does the amount of money transported with an army depend on the size of the army? (For example 100 troops carry 1000 geos?)
Second: Whoever hits (and kills that army) receives the geos? Or will the geos just be transfered if both armies meet? What if there are several armies at one place?
Third: How shall it work to be forced to buy troops with the geos I received?
Fourth: If I want to send geos to someone, can I choose freely which army to use? Can I carry geos over to another army of mine and send it to the receiver, just in case I urgently need the other army elsewhere?

I like both ideas. But the vessel stuff seems a little complicated - impact surely could be reduced if the amount of geos is limited to transport. And yes, I'd love to intercept armies and increase my bank :D

The limited bank transfers, would make games for geos a little more difficult. This might be solved with a feature to deposit money for the game into a dedicated account (like the lottery) and payouts then be made by staff or so ...

@thomas:

1) Exactly ;)
2) To deposit you just meet and give the command to deposit. But other armies can steal by attacking.
3) How do you mean?
4) Yes

But the vessel idea was back to the drawing board anyway, so it might be far away. The urgent one is for not being able to send geos outside your alliance.

@Starchy:
Yes that would be possible.

Ullricm:
Yeah that was the only problem, the Games For Geos. For that we would just think of something like you suggested there.

Great idea Luke cuz i see alot of players going in alliances and just keep sending there daily profit to someone else (not in the alliance) wich no one can know.

Great idea Luke cuz i see alot of players going in alliances and just keep sending there daily profit to someone else (not in the alliance) wich no one can know.

ah i know, it's alliance bank. :p :rofl

As far as Games for Geos and people selling donations for geos, that can be easily solved by making non-playing staff exempt and able to send/receive transfers.

True Yome. Happens a lot. And visa versa. People creating dozens of accounts that only now and then log in to transfer the geos. That's easy money!

I am speaking as a player when I say I want to see this idea implemented. Personally I was actually in favour of doing away with bank transfers all together. But I really like the idea of only allowing transfers within an alliance. It will also stop alot of the alliance hopping.

this would be so troublesome.

I dont want to be bothered to send an army each time I need to give geos to someone.

this would be so troublesome.

I dont want to be bothered to send an army each time I need to give geos to someone.

Not that one...the other idea.

cool, Luke.

When issuing question 3) I just misinterpreted what you wrote, you just meant, if I send someone a lot cash I need a big army which I have to use for fighting, otherwise it costs too much money.

The only big disadvantage I can think of right now is that it costs lots of money then to distribute geos within the alliance to maximize interest.

So I'm indeed not really happy about this idea but the way you described it I think I could live with it.

But I'm not sure if it helps to make it harder for dupes by forcing them to join the alliance where the main account is in. Sure there is the risk for the cheater that one of his "real" alliance mates contacts staff confidentially to inform them there are fishy money transfers in their alliance. But I think the probability of a player to "grass" his alliance mate is low. Unless there is a spy in that alliance... muahaha :D

Yes, for paying out prize money there could be an extra games master account who deposits it to the winner. It should work same way if you have to pay an amount to be able to play a certain game.

If you want to send geos to someone else outside your alliance for example for buying cities, donorships, intel, pink thongs,... and you are not a donator you would have to send the geos to a donator in your alliance who can transfer it, that's another disadvantage. It would be worse for small alliances with no donators or single players...

aw, hm, bad idea.
Because the problem persists, people woulndt be abble to give geos to whomever they want.

I had a idea regarding this, and it was a good idea.
of course, no oine noticed it.
I will not say it again, because thats a waste of time, but it would end the fake account problems in most cases, and every person could still send geos to who they want.

the vessel idea seems a bit complicated, but i do like the idea of being able to raid passing vessels for the geo's. it would be frustrating for the looser but good fun for the pirates.

If you want to send geos to someone else outside your alliance for example for buying cities, donorships, intel, pink thongs,... and you are not a donator you would have to send the geos to a donator in your alliance who can transfer it, that's another disadvantage. It would be worse for small alliances with no donators or single players...

No those can be done by interference of a crewmember. This way crew can keep a check on the moneyflow also. It's a little more complicated indeed, but I don't really see another way.

And foskasse refuses to grace us with his idea....and I must say I heard hunderds of ideas but can't remember any that would really work. Although I kinda like that Foskasse doesn't like the idea....because that means it could work(as I and many others usually do the opposite of what Foskasse says :) ).

So I'm not talking about a fun feature here....I'm talking about we really need to do something. For a while I was actually considering SJ's request of totally taking away the bank.

the vessel idea seems a bit complicated, but i do like the idea of being able to raid passing vessels for the geo's. it would be frustrating for the looser but good fun for the pirates.
lol yes but I guess you have to beat the army to be able to receive the geos.

Hahaha another funny idea pops up in my mind: You are owned if you beat the army but the geos there is so much that you can't carry it with your surviving troops. That would mean the geos fall down at the base/city and whoever gets there receives following message: "Congrats, you found XXXX,YZ geos, do you want to pick them up?"

lol yes but I guess you have to beat the army to be able to receive the geos.

Hahaha another funny idea pops up in my mind: You are owned if you beat the army but the geos there is so much that you can't carry it with your surviving troops. That would mean the geos fall down at the base/city and whoever gets there receives following message: "Congrats, you found XXXX,YZ geos, do you want to pick them up?"

hahahahahaha LOL

Hahaha another funny idea pops up in my mind: You are owned if you beat the army but the geos there is so much that you can't carry it with your surviving troops. That would mean the geos fall down at the base/city and whoever gets there receives following message: "Congrats, you found XXXX,YZ geos, do you want to pick them up?"

:rofl, I will scout for geos and just pick it all up :p i will be so rich ...

No those can be done by interference of a crewmember. This way crew can keep a check on the moneyflow also. It's a little more complicated indeed, but I don't really see another way.

And foskasse refuses to grace us with his idea....and I must say I heard hunderds of ideas but can't remember any that would really work. Although I kinda like that Foskasse doesn't like the idea....because that means it could work(as I and many others usually do the opposite of what Foskasse says :) ).

So I'm not talking about a fun feature here....I'm talking about we really need to do something. For a while I was actually considering SJ's request of totally taking away the bank.


I am glad I am your reverse moral compus, but still, thats streching the distance beetwen donators and non donators.

my idea, who in all its grace will never see the light of day, consisted, basically, in making the amount you can transfer, directly attached to your daily revenue.

a noob, who at best has a daily revenue of 500, could only transfer 500 geos per day.
sounds good doesnt it? ( i bet not)

Anyways, a good idea would be NOT to transfer all my geos to foskasse´s bank account.

This is leading offtopic but could you then mark the geos in GE? Just a geo symbol and a short text like "Congrats, you found geos! Send an army to check how much it is and to carry it home".

I am glad I am your reverse moral compus, but still, thats streching the distance beetwen donators and non donators.

my idea, who in all its grace will never see the light of day, consisted, basically, in making the amount you can transfer, directly attached to your daily revenue.

a noob, who at best has a daily revenue of 500, could only transfer 500 geos per day.
sounds good doesnt it? ( i bet not)

Anyways, a good idea would be NOT to transfer all my geos to foskasse´s bank account.

No it actually wouldn't work. The daily revenue is what the fake accounts usually already send, so what difference would your idea be? They wouldn't be hurt at all with it, and can keep on growing and sending.

my idea, who in all its grace will never see the light of day, consisted, basically, in making the amount you can transfer, directly attached to your daily revenue.

a noob, who at best has a daily revenue of 500, could only transfer 500 geos per day.
sounds good doesnt it? ( i bet not)

hmm... I think this idea is not bad, at least staff could debate it,it would make it harder for cheaters as well. I guess staff could just code a script which produces an alert if you send your all your daily revenue to another player for a longer period of time.

No it actually wouldn't work. The daily revenue is what the fake accounts usually already send, so what difference would your idea be? They wouldn't be hurt at all with it, and can keep on growing and sending.


half the daily revenue? or a third? :p

Limits were already discussed. They would hurt everyone except the cheaters really. Because they have dozens of accounts just sneaking in every day and sending what they can.

The thing is that if they wipe out all their traces, they actually can send it everyday. Even if GEPolice is warned. What can GEPolice do if they have wiped out all traces, right?

The problem is that the bank is the weak spot in every online game.

But this way, the good people who dont cheat would be hurt too.

But, whatever, I am a donator..

Yeah they would. But ofcourse if it had always been that way, they wouldn't have noticed. Ofcourse it means newbies in smaller alliances might have a bigger problem than newbies in big alliances. As long as there is 1 donator in their alliance, they have no problems. But that's why I'm throwing it out here. To see if it's too heavy.

But in the end if we don't do something, the problem will be worse. Most of you probably now and then felt the frustration of almost knowing for sure someone was cheating, and eating up your honest geos. Imagine the frustration of us crew also.

ok I see the "transport geos by armies" or "restricting deposits to alliance mates" idea would be the better way to prevent from cheaters.


About the raiding and finding geos idea: We would have to discuss if that would be too far away from the things that belong to gewar or if it in the end produces more unhappy victims of plunder than happy pirates. But we should keep in mind that there are thousands of armies floating around so there would be low risk that your transport is robbed and there shouldn't be any caption at any army like "hit me, I carry geos". So I think this could be a funny feature.

Alright Luke, that's the action i like. Very good ideas brought up by you and/or the admins.
I fully agree to the vessel and the quick patch.
Lets try it to see if it works.

Awesome, do the first thing. But I'd go one step further and say vessels can only go to cities!

I do know a feature noone else would like (Or my radar wouldn't have warned me about this thread) but I'll gladly let it rest to not discourage the recent rave in additions to the game. Can't scare the staff back into their nests..

I am all for the inter alliance freedom to distribute geos rule +1 for alliance bank. People just aren’t going to keep their dups in the same alliance. If they did, as the game goes on these accounts won’t attack, ferreting out the cheaters naturally. I think there are enough honest players in each alliance who don’t want to see the integrity of the game eroded by cheaters to blow the whistle on questionable activity.

As for the vessels, I do not like it. I think it is too complicated, and it will be too costly to make large transfers when players do not have time to fight, but might need to transfer... granted I don’t see this scenario playing out much, nonetheless I do not think vessels are the answer as it promotes piracy.

Since the majority of funds are transferred inter-alliance, limiting transfer to this realm would greatly reduce fraudulent transfers. Most alliances have at least one active donator to assist in emergency transfers. The only remaining difficulty is upholding DIPLOMACY. A lot of small transfers occur to compensate for exchange of cities and accidental/100 troop attacks. Players would have to adjust to not having this ability, but all that would change is strategy.

I think the best possible solution, and means to avoid FRAUD is to develop a third party bank approval system. I am not sure of the complexity of giving members access to central banking arenas as I am not a coder, but enabling a trusted body to access and approve transfers might alleviate these difficulties. Ideally, these members would all be mods/admins/gepolice, but to avoid constraining the time of these already busy/dedicated people, another solution should be presented.

My suggestion... dare I say it: reestablish the Security Council, but this time give it a defined purpose: “To monitor small scale extra-alliance banking activity.” What I mean by this is if we could somehow route all small transfers to a page much like an alliance page, but it will list transfers like the world bank page does, and have an approval link.
For example:
“player 1 sends to player 2: XXXX geos. Reason (30 character limit) Approve—or---Disapprove
(the approve or disapprove will display the deciding council members username)

The rest of the council could then see this(or like the last 50 transfers), and hopefully it would become a credible system where players do not (or even better cannot) approve transactions made by their own alliance members.

Of course numerous objectors will vocalize their opposition to having a member of each alliance with their noses in private transactions, so for that reason I propose a cap of around 5,000 geos or so. (again this is only to non alliance members)

Transfers over this 5,000(or whatever decided) arbitrary ceiling would go to a higher level (admin/police) for approval. Such transfers of higher amounts would retain their “secrecy” but also be monitored. How often do such large amounts travel outside the alliance really? Hopefully this wouldn’t be too much work :o


Hmm, guess I had some thoughts ;i02

Awesome, do the first thing. But I'd go one step further and say vessels can only go to cities!

I do know a feature noone else would like (Or my radar wouldn't have warned me about this thread) but I'll gladly let it rest to not discourage the recent rave in additions to the game. Can't scare the staff back into their nests..

Actually, discussion of said feature is what led up to this idea...

I Like both Ideas!!

Really cool! Great job Luke and staff!

roberto

Actually, discussion of said feature is what led up to this idea...

Awesome. Carry on.

Timmetie: I knew the alliance thing was brought up several times indeed, but didnt know Blitz already came up with 'the messenger'.

And absolutely not taken as critisism at all(and I mean it this time too).

Now that you are here. You had some ideas yourself too. If you ever have the time, I'd like you to explain the homebase stealage idea again. Perhaps in details, as behind the screens it got stuck in discussion.

*edit: hey i'm quite sure your post was different when I responded to it :p

hahaha!
I liked this idea, but I am laughing about another thing...

I can now imagine hundreds, no, better, thousands of armies of chinese comunity going to zhanggufengt cities or HB to transfer their daily quota of geos. And another Thousand of 3RD (and many more alliances) trying to intercept them. We can now track who are the chinese players which helps WTO, even if they still try to tell us that they don´t belong to that alliance :D

now I found a reason for the following picture. The green lines are 3RD armies. All other lines are the vessels to zhang receive location...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/rerichjr/all.png

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyu5ckar5mQ&feature=related
In other words... "I support"

I would however say that crew nowhere state that hhmira's post mean that zhang belongs to those I stated in my post that might be cheating!!! Because the post might be interpreted that way without further information.

We got that...


Or did we o.O?

I would however say that crew nowhere state that hhmira's post mean that zhang belongs to those I stated in my post that might be cheating!!! Because the post might be interpreted that way without further information.
of course doesn´t mean that!

This is more related to last reset, for example, when disambo kept telling that he was not in WTO alliance, but at the half end of the round he revealed that he was there.

And we all know that the great score that zhang got last reset is only possible with the help of all his friends from WTO alliance and filiated players ;)

[QUOTE=hhmira]hahaha!
I liked this idea, but I am laughing about another thing...

I can now imagine hundreds, no, better, thousands of armies of chinese comunity going to zhanggufengt cities or HB to transfer their daily quota of geos. And another Thousand of 3RD (and many more alliances) trying to intercept them. We can now track who are the chinese players which helps WTO, even if they still try to tell us that they don´t belong to that alliance :D


Well, HHMIRA being a crew member and a well respected player for a long time
it is very surprising that you are delivering such a statement in the Forums.

I feel sorry for you that you lost your neutrality and step out like that...


Laoma

Well, HHMIRA being a crew member and a well respected player for a long time
it is very surprising that you are delivering such a statement in the Forums.

I feel sorry for you that you lost your neutrality and step out like that...


Laoma


ok, since I am not neither a crew member/respected player, I will say what everyones thinks, zanghufonfeghtingfonfog sucks and you guys suck for giving him tons of geos.

Now please go away and disapear.
thank you


and you write like a figleaf

Its seems to me it would be a heck of alot easier if you feel this is a big problem with cheating..and thats 1 reason we have to go 2 months with low geos amounts because your afraid of dup accounts, is too just stop the bank transfers out of new accounts..plain and simple..new players need geos too help them play not too give geos away too others...

ok, since I am not neither a crew member/respected player, I will say what everyones thinks, zanghufonfeghtingfonfog sucks and you guys suck for giving him tons of geos.

Now please go away and disapear.
thank you


A remarkable commend Foskasse.

laoma:

I felt that one coming when I read hhmira's post. That's why I posted hhmira's post could be misinterpreted. As his was meant as a joke as to having lots of friend funding him, like he said himself. I don't think hhmira was publicly saying zhang cheated, as hhmira knows better than to do that.

it'd be fun if the vessel is needed to go pick jewels, of increased value of course, and a hell of programming but should be more fun than just grinding on google earth.

laoma:

I felt that one coming when I read hhmira's post. That's why I posted hhmira's post could be misinterpreted. As his was meant as a joke as to having lots of friend funding him, like he said himself. I don't think hhmira was publicly saying zhang cheated, as hhmira knows better than to do that.

well Luke, if you read my post in details - I didn't say anything about cheating.
Even I was straight forward to HHIMRA, I knew better that he wouldn't say or think so. I trust him that he usually try to do the right things as I am read a lot commends from him in here and also have direct exchange.

The little difference is and that I tried to make clear, a MOD is a MOD.
If he do jokes like he did, for many people things turn out like a proof. Specially if it is a respected MOD like HHMIRA.

That's all I have to say and now let's levae that behind and go back to play.

[QUOTE=hhmira]hahaha!
I liked this idea, but I am laughing about another thing...

I can now imagine hundreds, no, better, thousands of armies of chinese comunity going to zhanggufengt cities or HB to transfer their daily quota of geos. And another Thousand of 3RD (and many more alliances) trying to intercept them. We can now track who are the chinese players which helps WTO, even if they still try to tell us that they don´t belong to that alliance :D


Well, HHMIRA being a crew member and a well respected player for a long time
it is very surprising that you are delivering such a statement in the Forums.

I feel sorry for you that you lost your neutrality and step out like that...


Laoma


I disagree, I think his comment was completely respectful and neutral
HHMIRA is as good as they get on the forums and off
he speaks for the consensus I am sure, after all WTO tactics may not be respected but I am sure they are legit tactics
But its well known that you all fund one or two players to gain score and its not illegal as far as I know as for ethical ....well we just wont go there

Laoma I think you have totally misunderstood Hhmiras post, and unfortunately not even listened to Lukes.

I found the post amusing, but in no way assumed or even thought he was accusing you all of doing anything suspect. If players in gewar believe there is something funny going on, tell them to speak to the GEPolice, that is what they are here for.

GeWar is always going to be full of gossip Laoma, but the majority of us just ignore it and put our faith in the staff here.

Hhmiras post was as you have been told a joke, and just because he is a member of staff, does not mean he is not allowed to have a joke on the forums.

Laoma I think you have totally misunderstood Hhmiras post, and unfortunately not even listened to Lukes.

I found the post amusing, but in no way assumed or even thought he was accusing you all of doing anything suspect. If players in gewar believe there is something funny going on, tell them to speak to the GEPolice, that is what they are here for.

GeWar is always going to be full of gossip Laoma, but the majority of us just ignore it and put our faith in the staff here.

Hhmiras post was as you have been told a joke, and just because he is a member of staff, does not mean he is not allowed to have a joke on the forums.

smile..thx Princess, at least I deserve that critic that HHMIRA is also a player and sure can joke in the Forums as a player

hahaha!
I liked this idea, but I am laughing about another thing...

I can now imagine hundreds, no, better, thousands of armies of chinese comunity going to zhanggufengt cities or HB to transfer their daily quota of geos. And another Thousand of 3RD (and many more alliances) trying to intercept them. We can now track who are the chinese players which helps WTO, even if they still try to tell us that they don´t belong to that alliance :D

now I found a reason for the following picture. The green lines are 3RD armies. All other lines are the vessels to zhang receive location...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/rerichjr/all.png

:D


I can not understand what you saying. Even a children will not get this idea, it show me that your english is good, your drewing is good, and your honor has lost.

every one have their own choice, they like WTO then help them, it does not your matter, yes? you act as a MOD, if you could behalf of the crews of Gewar, can I consider, all MOD will like to see, all the Chinese Player will get off this game? or all the MOD regard the Chinese as JOKE!!!

Please, Please, Please, dunt only point to chinese, thank you.

and, laoma, thank you too, a real thanks.

I can not understand what you saying. Even a children will not get this idea, it show me that your english is good, your drewing is good, and your honor has lost.

every one have their own choice, they like WTO then help them, it does not your matter, yes? you act as a MOD, if you could behalf of the crews of Gewar, can I consider, all MOD will like to see, all the Chinese Player will get off this game? or all the MOD regard the Chinese as JOKE!!!

Please, Please, Please, dunt only point to chinese, thank you.

and, laoma, thank you too, a real thanks.

This is not right, DOOM you really need to ask Laoma or Ikan to explain to you, Hhmira was not being dishonourable, or disrespecting you or your alliance.

It was a joke as in funny ha ha. The picture is meant to signify us all chasing each other on google earth.

Nobody has even mentioned wanting anyone to leave the game, least of all the staff do not want anybody to leave the game.

Why on earth would you even think a joke is in some way signifying our wish for all of the Chinese to leave GEWar. We would never want this, you are part of our community.

But I will once again reiterate, as Luke has done previously and also Hhmira, this picture and his post was a joke, not meant in any shape or form nastily.

I am the only one who was disrespectful, not hhmira.
if you wanna beat on someone, it should be me.

But I am tough :p

I'm going to close the thread for the night. Luke can decide to re-open it in the morning. I suggest that those with concerns contact hhmira directly and you will find that he is a very reasonable and honourable player. I'm sure you will find common ground and realize his true intentions. I understand where some wto players are coming from but SJ is totally correct, all the staff values the diversity in gewar and the Chinese community are a very important component of gewar.